Do you guys really think some of these Indoor courts that are being put up are actually viable and have been set up in a structured way to last?
What do I mean? So for example my local town has 4 outdoor courts that are always booked evenings and weekends, mainly because it's the only option. I have just seen a planning application submitted for a change of use on an existing warehouse to accommodate 4 padel courts and a cafe/lounge area. The warehouse is up for let on rightmove at over £16k per month, around £200k per year on rent... Let alone staffing costs, HVAC, business rates etc... Does this not just seem crazy?
I ran the figures very quickly and to just break even they are looking at a 50-60% utilisation!
They are going to have to charge a premium which is expected since they an indoor facility but at what point to people care less for the top quality / indoor facility and just want a social knock around with their mates so they decide to just play on the outdoor courts and stomach the wind/sun...
For example, I like tennis, there is a hardcourt outdoor facility which is a good facility, or an indoor facility. I don't care enough to pay the extra and go indoors, I would rather be outside in the sun.
The same for golf, I like golf, I am a single figure handicap. There is an indoor swing simulator I can rent for £20-25 an hour with perfect mats and a projector with yardages etc, or I can go to the regular driving range for £7 for 100 balls.
Of course these indoor Padel facilities will always attract the serious players and the outdoor courts will be quiet throughout the winter, but will this market not fade away as people get bored of paying £40-70 a time for indoors vs £15-30 for outdoors?
You are talking about the UK but not mentioning rain?
I don't understand the economics to be honest but in the NL (similar climate) outdoor courts are a last resort in the months that I have played. Wind and Sun are fine, cold sucks but is fine after a warm up, rain is a game cancellation. Most people would rather not take the risk.
I'd personally say I can't understand outdoor courts being full in the colder months, unless there are no other indoor options. Based on the my experience in Amsterdam, people will happily pay a premium for indoor courts.
I live in Spain, and while I wouldn't mind playing an outdoors match from time to time, I'd always take indoors for regular play. Why would you add random variables to the game for no reason?
I didn’t mention the rain because I thought it’s a given, if it’s raining nobody is playing.
But in the Netherlands, surely outdoor courts on a calm, sunny day are much more appealing than inside a warehouse?
If it's raining nobody is playing outdoors.
I think you have your answer, 'in the Netherlands, on calm, sunny day'. Those are limited, indoor courts are usable all year around whatever the weather.
Denmark so similar weather: No, outdoor doesn't automatically beat indoor just because the sun is out.
Wind is a factor as well, outdoor might as well be a different game all together if it's above a certain amount of m/s.
The courts are also different from indoor courts, so you have to get used to the differences.
When you spend 70% of the year being mostly limited to playing indoors and are used to the controlled environment, it's a lot easier to stick with that rather than adapt to the changing factors of outdoor play. Some people like it, some people don't.
In my experience in the north west the indoor courts are only charging maybe £5-10 more than the outdoor courts.
And given this is Britain, it's worth the premium in winter for sure.
I live in an area where there are a few 2 indoor court converted warehouse spaces in rural areas. They’re charging £60 per hour and are busy at the moment, but I do wonder if the business is viable longer term.
Yes I think so, there is a race at the moment to catch the rush. It’ll die down and some normal stability will be found, it’ll then be about price vs quality vs atmosphere i think.
I think you’re correct. At what point are the indoor facilities that have 200k in rent alone, unable to compete with outdoor courts that are so much cheaper
Even indoor, there will be a price point at which people will accept based on the rest of the market. I’m between 3 clubs (all indoor) and at the moment I go to one or the other based on the match but as prices change people will move and it’ll spread out.
I’m already seeing availability go up, as more places open. We’re going from 8 courts total indoor to over 50 in the space of a year…..
I think Prices should start going down after dust settles.
If you see Spain/portugal/italy they have reasonable prices and good courts (both indoor-outdoor) and the sport is still growing.
Here in Argentina is having it's 2nd boom, courts all around. Have in mind we pay 40/50 USD per match. so 10-13usd per person here. And for the 6pm-10pm bracket there's NO F#CKING courts avaliable.
Key thing is being able to host classes/open courts from 8am to 4pm. that's what's keeping the clubs in great shape here vs the ones that are having issues.
Open courts/friendly days are having a boom here.
Bare in mind there are grants etc abaulable for helping to open more spoets facilities etc. not to mention deals to be had.
I completed some warehouses last year. 2 of the units were leased for padel. But as they took 2 units a discount was added. And further discount was offered if they took more. And going by popularity it wouldn’t surprise me if they took the remaining 4 units. Not to mention the owner )my client) owned multiple properties. I know he offered more discount for offering estate rates for others on the same industrial estate.
Are those prices per person or for the whole court? Poor people don't really play padel anyway and those with money are probably willing to pay a premium just for the quality of time and game. I can enjoy playing outdoors for fun every now and then on a nice summer day but I would not want to play serious games outdoors. Indoors vs outdoors are like two different sports.
I think it comes down how much more the indoor charges vs outdoor. What is the situation of tennis? I think there are more outdoor courts in UK than indoor. What is the price difference and ratio indoor to outdoor in your city. Tennis is a good benchmark when discussing the feasibility of the indoor club since they are mature business.
I will use South Africa as an example as I’ve been out here for a few months. There are loads of clubs here, most are outdoors. The outdoor clubs are very cheap - as low as £3 per person for 90 minutes. There are a few indoor/covered courts which are more expensive, but still quite cheap compared to the uk, around £10 p/p. The indoor courts are always booked despite the weather here being very nice. People just prefer playing indoors and are willing to pay more for it.
I think the pool of players in years to come will be enough to allow choices and preferences and both indoor and outdoor facilities will be able to exist alongside each other. Too many of each in one area may be a problem!
Out of interest where are you based?
Yeah I mean I hope for the people pouring money into these indoor facilities it stays successful but I just wonder about the more social/recreational players in a few years to come, I wonder if the outdoor seasonal padel player won’t mind about a bit of wind and sun as this group will be the ones that bring the most business at the end of the day I imagine. Maybe I am wrong I don’t know. I am based in Essex
i think youre right that a lot of people will default to cheaper, more social setups over time. you see it in other sports too, even in golf, some people would rather mess around outdoors with something simple like a cabana outdoor golf set or a driving range session than pay a premium for indoor sims. feels like indoors will always have a market, but it might stay more niche than people expect.
I am not sure how long you have been playing in various conditions.
When i was living in London, there were only a few clubs and most of them were outdoor.
We tried to play in all weather. Once it started snowing and we refused to stop until the snow covered the lines and you couldn't really tell if the serve was in or out. With hind sight, that was very stupid of us.
Rain, sun or wind is not the reason why indoor courts are preferred. It's slippery surface. Once at the Chiswick club, i saw the head coach slipped when teaching a lesson outdoor. He broke his thigh bone and had to take the rest of the year off work.
I played for many years in outdoor courts and put up with slippery surfaces. I had seen so many players suffered injury because of it.
Once the indoor courts start coming up, everybody rushed for them. This is uk after all.
Outdoor courts are a non starter but a recurring issue with indoor courts is the lack of good lighting. Businesses are just putting up padel courts without considering the playing experience.
Something I did not mention
Outdoor play = recreational
you can only play/improve for real in indoor spaces. Padel will transition to this in the coming years, there's been more and more issues with rain delays, wind unplayability and such. And I'd say every "serious" player or competitive one will tell you that they prefer indoor.
Here at least no.
My English is not the best but what I meant is the drive to improve and compete.
Here most people don't just play to unwind. Play to get better, play stronger tournaments and improve. So the outdoor courts are for low skill players. Once you start improving here you despise outdoor. That doesn't mean we're pro.
But the level is higher.
